Jack: Hello, guys. Thank you very much for joining me today. I'm joined by Mr. Twig Harper and Mr. Aaron Dilloway. I am going to start off with my customary question, how about I ask Twig first: how did you first get exposed to music and what was the genesis of your interest in music as a young person? Was it parents, family, friends? What is that story?
Twig: Well, I think for me, I really wasn't exposed to much music as a young child. Don't really ever remember it affecting me or being that interested in it. My parents had a lot of art books. They were both artists. So I was really into this Salvador Dali book. As a young kid I would just pour over these - Dali's work - and just I think that really got my brain in a specific frequency. My mother got divorced, remarried, and one of her partners played bass in a bar band, blues band, and I was like, "Oh, whoa, cool, music." And I was also getting into skateboarding and hearing interesting music via skateboarding and making friends that way. I asked for a guitar because I wanted to make loud music and he gave me an acoustic guitar and that was not the thing, right? So I kind of figured, well, how else can I make music this way? I already have this kind of abstract brain, thinking at it in more of an abstract art brain, right? And so I had a cassette player and I figured out I could tape over the erase head. So generally for me the first thing was just sound on sound. I was making cassettes mostly for me and my friends to take mushrooms to. So it'd be like, "Oh, cool, I'll just fill this cassette up and we'll just listen to, like, radio static."
Aaron: Where are those tapes?
Jack: Yeah, we need those tapes.
Twig: No shit! [laughter] I have no idea. Yeah, I'd just, like, scan stuff and I remember one version was taking parts of Butthole Surfers songs and just looping arty stuff that's way too intense, you know, just adding that [makes sound]. And then, yeah, we'd just take mushrooms. This is when I was 15 in South Florida. So from there it was just like, "Cool, this works."
Jack: Oh my God. [laughter] I mean, I'm not surprised that that's the origin story, but that's pretty amazing. So this is before you had any conception of a music scene around anything like that.
Aaron: Had you heard, like, Pink Floyd or anything?
Twig: No, because for me it was skateboarding. Someone handed me dubs of your standard late '80s, early '90s punk music. I was in South Florida and there was really not a scene there. And then I remember this one guy moved to town and he had cassettes. What did he have... I heard Chrome, Throbbing Gristle, Butthole Surfers, stuff like that. So that was kind of like, "Oh, this stuff is really the vibe I'm into." You know, some more industrial things like Skinny Puppy and stuff, I was like, "Yeah, this is alright," but not, like...
Aaron: But that was the first music that grabbed your attention.
Twig: Yeah, completely. Radio didn't, like... I didn't understand it. I didn't feel any connection to it, so it never really pulled me.
Jack: From there, not getting the electric guitar, did you eventually get an electric guitar? Did you want to start playing music with people? Or how did you get beyond the tape collage to a larger...
Twig: That didn't happen until I moved to Michigan. I moved to Michigan when I was 16 and then there was actually a music scene and people doing music. So yeah, eventually that did happen.
Jack: What did you find when you got there? What were some of the people or the scenes that were there at the time in the early, mid '90s?
Twig: So I guess the spot was the Lab and that was... Aaron, how do you describe that?
Aaron: It was a punk house.
Twig: Yeah. Tiny basement? How many people fit in that basement?
Aaron: That was a tiny basement. I mean, I feel like that [Laughing] Hyenas gig had, like, 100 people down there.
Twig: Did you go to the Hyenas/Couch one?
Aaron: Yeah, I mean, that was life-changing. That was when I saw Couch and was, like... That changed everything.
Twig: So yeah, that's the gig I think everyone who was, like... We all were there.
Jack: That was pretty early on after you moved there.
Twig: Yeah, for sure. I was still, maybe had... I mean, I got expelled from every high school I went to and I went to, like, three high schools, so... [laughter] Because I was just interested in...
Jack: Other activities. [laughter]
Twig: Other activities! Yeah, yeah. Much more interesting. [laughter]
Jack: At this point did you know that you were really into music? Like, music was your thing at this point?
Twig: Yeah, music and doing art and just being a total... I mean, also for me, I think at that time I was just sort of like, it's everything, you know? And music isn't a separate thing. It's a whole lifestyle, it's a whole complete universe. And I think that's the thing, music was this alternative entry point into a whole other reality that existed and you could live that. And there were communities and worlds and people creating their own reality and you could be a part of it.
Jack: Their own context in the world.
Twig: Yeah, yeah. So Nathan Young and I were going to Community [High School] and me and him connected really tightly then at that point.
Jack: Oh wow, that early on, cool. When you were 16 or so?
Twig: Yeah, yeah. It was also just a cool time. All of a sudden there was just... I think for me, moving from Florida where there was absolutely zero culture and not really people doing stuff to this small, cool town that has a really rich music history of people pushing the boundaries, our peer groups, just people being stoked and wanting to do stuff, I was a pig in shit. I was super happy and, yeah, it was just a cool moment in time where everyone all appeared and everyone had brought their own thing into the stew. We were all kind of, like... I don't know, the vibe felt like everyone's just trying to outdo each other together, you know? Like, how do we just keep pushing this? How do we just keep pushing this?
Jack: So then at that point, were you guys making music together?
Twig: Well, our high school band was called Scheme, and it was sort of no fixed membership, no fixed anything. We would just get together and destroy things. [laughter]
Aaron: Pretty much crash frat parties.
Twig: Yeah, crash frat parties. Try to get booked at a party and then just bring in a bunch of garbage and break everything that's around.
Jack: Wow, so this is not hyperbole, like, actually crash frat parties.
Twig: Yeah, yeah, literally. [laughter] We'd load up a van with, like, lamps, furniture, small practice amps, roll to houses in Ann Arbor where there's a frat party be like, "Hey, so yeah, we're the band, we’re booked to play." And they'd be like, "No, no, you're not." We're like, "Yeah, yeah, we are." And they're like, "Oh, there must be some confusion." "Hey, we'll play anyways!" You know? So they think they're getting a free band.
Jack: They're getting a deal, yeah.
Twig: Yeah, yeah. Like, "We just want to jam anyways." And then we just bring in all the garbage, break everything, and then try to grab more stuff and throw it in the...
Aaron: You cut the power at some place once, right?
Twig: Yeah, yeah. It was a real... [laughter] We got booked one year to play a house show and we destroyed it. And then the next year - I don't know if it's a year, whatever - he was doing another one and then we're all like, "Why didn't he ask us to play again?" [laughter] Totally offended, like, "They should ask us to play it." He had this other show with this kind of, I don't know, like, heavy funk band playing. And so we're just like, "Fuck it, we're going to play anyways." So we rolled there and we tried to and a bunch of people just started swinging and we started getting in a fight and everyone's just brawling outside. And then our one friend Jodie goes in, smashes one of their parent's cars - it's at this kid's parents' house - throws a hose in the front seat and turns on the water. [laughter] Just not good shit. You know, just total... Everyone was all bloody and breaking shit. And so we all leave and then we get back to the group house and it was me and Thom Klepach. I'm just like, "We're going back, We're going back, we're going to fucking do this." And so we drive back and I have bolt cutters and stupidly I'm like, "I'm going to cut the mains to the house." And Tom's like, "No, no." I'm like, "Can I do it?" "No, no." I was like, "I'm doing it, I don't care, I don't care." And when I did it - Tom was standing ten feet back - he said it looked like a Looney Tunes cartoon because a big blue arc of electricity shot out and he said I was like a Looney Tunes character where he could see my bones and me getting shot away. [laughter] He had to grab me and throw me over a shoulder and run back over.
Jack: So obviously you got zapped.
Twig: I lost consciousness, I don't know. [laughter]
Jack: Wow, I'm glad you're still alive.
Aaron: You showed them! [laughter]
Twig: I got 'em!
[Nautical Almanac "Nautical Almanac's Anti-Systems"]
Jack: Well, so why don't we just go back and start all over again with Aaron? What was the genesis of you becoming aware of your interest in music or getting into music? Friends, family? What was your early experience with that?
Aaron: I was into music as far back as I can remember. My brother and sister were nine and ten years older than me, so there was always music around and we got cable TV in '81 or so. So I was, like, six years old and got MTV. And as a little, little kid, I was obsessed with KISS and got a plastic KISS guitar for Christmas once and immediately that day broke it in the garage because Paul Stanley would smash his guitar, and immediately cried. But just always, always into music. Eventually, I played hockey too, and I got such bad grades in sixth grade or in fifth grade that my mom made me quit playing hockey. So I got a skateboard, and then that led me to punk music. As a little kid, I'd get all the magazines: Hit Parader and Faces magazine and, I don't know what magazine it was, if it was a skateboard magazine or probably like a Hit Parader or something, where it was a catalog to order in the back for punk music. And I had heard punk music in fourth grade; a kid on my team, his sister was a punker, had super cool, crazy looking... This is '84 or something. And he brought in a Butthole Surfers tape and played it, "The Shah Sleeps in Lee Harvey's Grave".
Jack: Wow, that's a great first one.
Aaron: That was the first punk music I ever heard. So fast forward a couple of years when I finally hear, like, Sex Pistols and stuff, and it doesn't seem like punk music to me.
Jack: It seems a bit more tame compared to that early Butthole Surfers stuff.
Aaron: Yeah, so I got into punk, but I was always looking for something a little more chaotic. And so it took quite a few years, you know, getting into noise rock stuff and I kind of liked some of that stuff, but there was something else I was looking for. It wasn't really until I saw Couch that it was like, "Oh, okay, this is it." But yeah, then that kind of leads me to the first time I ever saw Twig was at the Blind Pig. The Cows played at the Blind Pig and it was the only time I ever remember them having an all ages show. It was the Cows and Hammerhead and Twig was there and he stuck out. He had a homemade Butthole Surfers shirt. He had drawn on the cover of the first album or something. And he had these long dreadlocks with, like... What was it, like, yarn or macramé braided into them that went down to his feet.
Twig: Macramé, yeah, yeah. With a bunch of random garbage also tied in there. [laughter]
Aaron: Like, "Who the fuck is this guy?"
Jack: High schooler. We're talking high schooler, right now.
Aaron: Yeah, yeah. This was probably early '92, so 10th grade or something. So I kept going to gigs and we would go to Ann Arbor to buy records.
Jack: What town did you grow up in?
Aaron: I grew up in Brighton. It's a 20 minute drive from Ann Arbor. So we would go up every weekend to Ann Arbor and hit Olga's which was a restaurant. We'd hit Schoolkids' and then go to Bent Tower and then go to Olga's and eat and look at our records. But "I would see Twig around town and I'd be like, "Oh, that's that guy." [laughter]
Jack: Unmistakable.
Aaron: And then the first time I ever met him was, I had heard about you because of Julie, a girl I went to high school with. There was me and my buddy Justin and my friend John LeMay that were into kind of the same music. I didn't know anyone else in my high school into the stuff. And then I was walking down the hall and I saw Julie had a flier for a Lab gig in her locker. And I'm like, "Whoa, you know about the Lab?" Because this is, like, you know, a secret underground Ann Arbor place.
Jack: This is just, like, a house venue.
Aaron: Yeah, yeah. And I think she had met you guys and was hanging out with you guys before I met you. So, anyways, me and Justin had formed a band after seeing Couch and she played oboe, so we invited her to be in our band. But yeah, we were all at Performance Network to see Couch. You did the "check out my new watch" trick to me. And that was the first time you ever talked to me.
Jack: What's the "check out my new watch" trick? I might be susceptible to this until you tell me.
Aaron: We're in the stands - they had stands at the Performance Network because it's a performance space for, like, plays and stuff. We're sitting in the stands and you came and sat next to me and goes, "Want to see my new watch?" I look over and he had wrapped his dick around his wrist. [laughter] I looked down and I'm like, "What the fuck?" Yeah, so that was our first meeting.
Jack: None of this is surprising me, though, honestly. [laughter].
Twig: Yeah.
Aaron: So there was the Couch gig with the Hyenas and it was the closest thing to noise I had seen. They played and we were just like, "What the fuck is up with this band?" So then a couple of months later, I went into Schoolkids' and I saw they had a record out and I was like, "How the fuck can this band have record out?!" [laughter] And so I bought it and I got it home and I realized what they were doing were actual songs. I was like, "I remember them yelling this at the show." So I went back there and Geoff Walker - he sang in a band called Gravitar, a noise rock band - was working. I don't think Jim [Magas] was there yet. And I said, "I bought this record the other week. Is there anything else like this?" So he handed me the first Caroliner record and the first Naked City CD. I liked the Naked City CD, it was funny to me, but the Caroliner record spoke to me much, much more. That was like, "Yes, this is it."
Twig: I mean, yeah, you find a record that's made out of garbage and it's just... Caroliner also was, I think, the thing that all of us were like, "Well, this is a total zone." For me I was like, "This exists completely out of any sphere I'm familiar with.".
Aaron: Yeah, that still...
Twig: And it's still that way, right? [laughter]
Aaron: I mean, they were a huge, huge influence on all of us.
Twig: Yeah, yeah.
Aaron: It was because Schoolkids' stocked all those records. And so then when we finally did meet, we're like, "Oh, you're into Caroliner?" "Yeah, yeah." "Oh, shit." You know? Yeah, and Magas was eventually working at Schoolkids' and just turning us on to everything. I gave him a tape of my band Galen and he was like, "Oh, you guys must be really into Beefheart and DNA and all the no wave bands." And I'm like, "No, what?" I'd heard of Captain Beefheart and I'd seen that record since I was a kid, but so he invited us to his place at one point and played us Trout Mask and that target video with the DNA footage and and also Sun City Girls, which was another one which I had read about as a kid in my punk catalog that I got in sixth grade. You know, it was just lists, it was the Toxic Shock catalog. And I remember seeing the Sun City Girls in there. That was where I first saw the names Throbbing Gristle and Sun City Girls.
Jack: So at this time - you know, I'm always curious - it was just, like, catalogs, or whatever, magazines or just through people. But how were you guys finding out about, you know, Japanese noise stuff from that time?
Twig: Bananafish was a big treasure trove of that and that was one of the things, you're like, "I'm buying all this. Yep, I'm looking at this. What is this?" You know? Very important.
Jack: And so they obviously stocked those at Schoolkids' I imagine.
Twig: Yeah, yeah. And I mean it's so cool, Jim's like, "Hey, high school kids, read Bananafish magazine." [laughter] It was like, "Yeah! Oh my God! What the fuck!!" [laughter]
Jack: That's so insane.
Aaron: Yeah, I think the Boredoms were on my radar through noise rock stuff. So I got Soul Discharge but I don't think it was until I met Magas. I can't remember if it's Roach or Magas that played me Hanatarash or Gerogerigegege, they were probably two of the first...
Jack: Those are my two personal faves of that scene, definitely. Can you talk a little bit about Galen and what was up with you guys? Who was it with and how did you start it?
Aaron: So that was my friend Justin Allen and I. We were in a bunch of bands starting in probably seventh grade. We had a band with our friend Tim, we would do Bowie covers and Echo and the Bunnymen covers and stuff, and then Justin and I in ninth grade or so started a grunge band called Smock, classic grunge name. So we were in that and then it was with this other guy - I don't even remember how we met him - but he lived in Farmington or something. I played drums, Justin played guitar, and this other guy played bass and sang, but I wrote a lot of the songs, guitar riffs and stuff, but Justin and I were getting more and more into noisier stuff and trying to push the band into, like, Hyenas or... And then with them, we went to that Couch gig and it kind of changed everything. And we're like, "Fuck." So we broke up that band and we were like, "We're going to start a new band. We don't play any real chords." And we started this band called Galen. We played our first show, let's see... We had met Magas and Pete [Larson], I remember we went to go see '68 Comeback play at where the Misfits played... Union Ballroom.
Twig: Yeah, the classic venue.
Aaron: And the Stooges. So, yeah, '68 Comeback was playing there and we went to that and Pete and Jim asked us to open for Couch for their next show, which was at Performance Network. That was our first concert, opening for Couch and Math, which was Mr. Quintron, one of his early bands.
Jack: Oh wow, crazy.
Twig: Yeah, because all the Chicago bands were coming to Ann Arbor to play. Those guys were bringing them in at that time, right?
Aaron: Yeah. But so then I eventually moved to Ann Arbor. We would play some shows together and then I moved to Ann Arbor after high school in '95 and became closer friends with Twig and Nate.
Jack: Yeah, so then I guess we can just jump over to that. What's the genesis of you starting Nautical Almanac, which is the project that you maybe are most associated with.
Twig: Yeah, I guess Nautical, in a way, was kind of how to remedy what Scheme had been in my brain. I was like, "Okay, it's open membership, no rules." And it's like, "Okay, we have to do something that has a little more, you know, be a little more in control with the vision to kind of pull in the freaks that are more aligned." And at first it was Thom Klepach and Nathan and me and, God, I'm forgetting her name.
Aaron: The cheerleader girl? Oh, no, Patty. Well, there was Patty, but then the cheerleader girl, too.
Twig: Yeah, this is all... My mind's gone about this. But, yeah, we had sort of this one form, and then it slowly turned into a three piece, which the first record was Solomon [Meltzer], Nathan and me. And that's us on, you know, percussion, guitar and electronics or organ or other stuff that was around. And so yeah, I guess that's it. [laughter]
Jack: So you and Nate started it together. Was it your project or was it this collaborative thing between you guys?
Twig: I don't really ever feel any ownership about anything. So yeah, I mean, I don't know.
Aaron: But it was based on a book, right? Wasn't it a book that you and Tom Klepach found?
Twig: Yeah, he found a book. So, Nautical Almanacs are actually used for people who sail on the seas and they're just books of, I don't know, tides or stars or... I don't know what they are, bunch of numbers, books full numbers. And then Tom started writing limericks.
Aaron: Dirty nursery rhymes, right?
Twig: Yeah, he was like, expert in nursery rhymes. [laughter] And so that was kind of the genesis of it. [laughter]
Jack: So that was the original concept?
Twig: The very first. Yeah, yeah.
Aaron: Yeah, there's a video that I shot from when we played with you and it's Twig on guitar, Nate on guitar, Thom Klepach playing drums with two huge cow femurs on, like, rubber plastic garbage cans, and then some girl cheerleading. [laughter]
Jack: Yes!
Twig: Total makes no sense.
Jack: You have a video of this?
Aaron: Yeah, it's on YouTube or maybe on my Vimeo.
[Nautical Almanac's first show]
Jack: I vaguely remember hearing that you had to leave Michigan. Is that true?
Twig: Yeah, I had to leave in the trunk of a car because the police were trying to arrest me without a warrant. So they were showing up at the place of my work and looking for me.
Aaron: And our house.
Twig: Yeah, they busted in your guys'. I lived two doors down from the Huron house and another one but since where Aaron was living is the more obvious spot, they just busted in, right?
Aaron: I think, that's the way I remember it. You guys were trying to wake me up to go. Everybody was going to go protest the KKK rally that was happening and you guys couldn't wake me up or I was just like, "I can't." Like, it was probably one in the afternoon and I'm like, "Oh, no, no, I gotta sleep." [laughter]
Twig: "I gotta watch the Planet of the Apes again." [laughter]
Aaron: I was up last night watching all the Planet of the Apes. [laughter] But yeah, then next thing I knew, I was woken up by Nate being like, "Dude, we gotta hide Twig. The cops are after Twig." And I'm like, "What the fuck?" And then I don't really remember much of anything else. There was videotape of you throwing rocks at cops and throwing tear gas at cops.
Twig: Yeah, yeah. I mean, definitely, you know, protest, KKK comes to town and everyone rolls in. Ann Arbor, pretty lefty zone. Obviously, there's going to be a million more protesters than actual KKK members that came out from the sticks. It's just a big political show. And then the cops just start macing everybody. And all of a sudden, we're there and I'm hanging out and the first tear gas canister lands by my feet. I just pick it up and I turn and see about a hundred cops without gas masks. So I throw it at them, you know? [laughter] It's just like, this is the first one. It's just like, "Oh, yeah, we'll throw it in that other direction." So I ended up tear gassing a fuckload of cops. And then everyone starts throwing rocks at the cops, you know, then it was no longer the... Fuck the KKK, no one cares about them, now we're at war with the cops. I think someone did throw a really good shot and smashed one of the KKK guys. And there's all these really great photos of just him in his robe with blood pouring down his face. But yeah, then cops were pushing the crowd back and then people got pushed up against city hall and then people just smashed every window out of city hall. And then everyone started scattering.
Jack: So it started getting crazy.
Twig: Yeah, yeah, it was a full blown, small scale riot, you know? Then everyone got pushed into the city center and then it was just one of these things where, you know, cop cars everywhere. Everyone's scattering, everyone's hiding. Cops are all doing their thing. I managed not to get grabbed. [Police siren interrupts the recording]
Aaron: Oh, they're coming for you now! [laughter].
Jack: They've been intercepting!
Twig: I managed not to get grabbed, I duck into my friend's house and then get a car ride back to the houses. And then for the next three days, there's obviously a lawyer who steps up pro-bono to work with anyone who got arrested or who's about to get arrested. So a day or two later, I got the guy's number. I talked to him, he's like, "I don't see your name on the list." But they had been coming to work. I mean, we were already known. The cops already did not like us in town because we were just rabble rousers, you know.
Jack: Like, punk house rabble rousers.
Twig: Yeah, punk house rabble rousers, we were just always up to shenanigans. Not good, you know? And so he was just like, "There's not a warrant for your arrest. They're coming to your work. They're coming in the other house, looking for you. Get the hell out of town."
Jack: Was this that day or a couple days?
Twig: A couple of days, maybe a week, yeah.
Aaron: Yeah, I remember it was a couple days of just kind of going over and, you know, talking with Carly [Ptak] and Raishma like, "What's going on?! What's happening?!"
Twig: Yeah, the thing that got me to get out of town was I think there was a phone call to the house and they're like, "Hi, is Twig there?" And Carly was like, "Who's this?" "A friend." Then she looks out the front window and sees a bunch of cars waiting there. So next thing I know, they throw me in the trunk of a car, we just drive to Chicago. Get the hell out of town.
Jack: Holy shit.
Aaron: You ended up coming back for a while.
Twig: Yeah, because I had to deal with the legal stuff once that lawyer got it all together.
Aaron: Because there's actually a picture on the poster that came with the first Nautical Almanac record. There's a really small picture, and it's silkscreened over top of other shit, but you can see there's a picture. It's the three of you, it's you and Sol and a bunch of armed cops with helmets and riot gear on. If I remember right, it's from that day.
Twig: I would imagine so, yeah.
Jack: The first Nautical Almanac record on Hanson. Is that true?
Aaron: Yeah. Twig and I and Nate and Sol, we all put our money together to put out these three records: the first Nautical Almanac record, the Flossie and the Unicorns LP and the Ron of Japan 45.
Jack: Yes! Was that the first three?
Aaron: Yeah, they all came out at once. But yeah, so you had gone to Chicago, but then you came back and you were staying with Jay, right? Or that was a little later.
Twig: I don't know. This is a real hazy period. [laughter]
Jack: What's up with Steev Mike? What's up with Andrew W.K.?
Twig: I think people want to know. [laughter] So Andrew also went to the same high school as me and Nathan, but he was a couple of grades below us, even though, you know, I mean, I wasn't really in any grade. I was just showing up to school to meet people. [laughter]
Jack: Not officially recognized as being in any specific grade. [laughter]
Twig: So I saw Andrew and met him and he's always the kind of... Like, at first he was just like, who's this scared little shy guy kind of poking around the corners, trying to be like, "What's going on?" But not really knowing how to kind of get in. But then he did. I mean, probably three, four months later. And I feel like he had his crew too that were... God, Aaron, what's the name of all...
Aaron: Lab Lobotomy.
Twig: Yeah, yeah, with those guys. So they started playing shows.
Aaron: Yeah, so Galen and Lab Lobotomy would play gigs together, those were his high school buddies. But yeah, Andrew was 15 when I first met him. He had, I think, green hair.
Twig: Oh, I think our art teacher introduced me and Andrew. Maybe that was it. My art teacher was like, "You should meet Andrew!" Anyways.
Aaron: But yeah, he was this kid who was just really stoked, really excited and into making stuff, getting shit done.
Twig: And really talented too. I mean, I remember the first time seeing him play. His drumming was just like, "This kid's on the next level." You know?
Jack: I'm believing you guys that he's a real person because that's a whole lore there that maybe people remember or maybe people don't. You know, while we're on that, can somebody just explain the like Steev Mike lore, the story, briefly, just for the record? Of this whole rumor, that I think you started, saying that he's not a real person.
Twig: Did I? [laughter]
Jack: As far as I remember! That's what I know.
Twig: I mean, I guess the lore is that there's a shadowy cabal, possibly a person or not person, that invented a rockstar called Andrew W.K., who may or may not be a person. And throughout the years that person, Andrew W.K., has confirmed and denied it separate times, that Steev Mike is actually a real cabal or person behind everything. [laughter]
Jack: He blew up.
Twig: Right around 9/11.
Jack: Right around 9/11, yeah. There's a whole lot of symbology, a lot of coincidences there. But what did the name Steev Mike originate from?
Aaron: I don't know if we can really talk about that.
Twig: Yeah, we signed an NDA about a lot of this. [laughter]
Jack: An NDA, that's right. But when he was getting played on MTV and doing all that were you guys still friends? Were you still hanging out? Was he still in Michigan?
Aaron: Well, he did... I mean, we seriously could do a whole other episode. But no, there was about a year when none of us heard from him and it was when he was working on the record. And then once the record came out, we all went to those shows, you know, he put us on the lists for those shows and we'd go talk to him backstage and just be like, "What the fuck?" It was incredible. I think I cried the time I saw him. I was like, "He did it. This is so intense."
Twig: You and Nathan moved to New York to live with Andrew, as the whole kind of build up to be, like, "Who is actually in Wolf Eyes and who is in the Andrew W.K. band?"
Aaron: Yeah, that's true.
Twig: That's a whole little thing because I remember Andrew's first idea of who was going to be in the band was Dirty Tony, you guys, maybe me.
Aaron: Yeah. His plan, he wrote it all out: he's going to move to New York, he's going to do this, he's going to get signed. But he used to play me songs over the phone, his demos for his first album. But even before then he was making recordings in New York under the name Wolf Eyes and then eventually Nate and I were going to move out there and we were going to become a band, the three of us.
Jack: Wait, so Andrew W.K. was making recordings as Wolf Eyes? Was he putting them out?
Aaron: No, no, he would just send them to us. They kind of sound like John Carpenter or something. It was kind of synth prog sort of stuff. But then eventually it became that he's going to do this solo thing and me and Nate and Dirty Tony were going to be the band. There was even a photoshoot with the four of us as a band. And then Nate and I moved out there. This would've been '99, I guess, and we lived out there for two months in his place.
Twig: In Greenpoint.
Aaron: We were getting pretty deep into Wolf Eyes stuff at this point and we were trying to make more strange music than we were before. And he was trying to make more, you know, pop music. So it didn't really mesh, but I remember there were nights where he's teaching Nate how to play bass. I was going to be the drummer, Nate was going to be the bassist. [laughter] Yeah, but we did get some things out of that. He recorded the Fortune Dove 12" for us, that was recorded there. And then he and I did the Beast People 10" that was the Beast People opera record.
Jack: Beast People is a pretty notorious project that I've heard about for years. Do you guys want to talk a little bit about Beast People, the genesis, and what the concept was all about?
Aaron: Well, were you there when I first came home, I had been at Harold's and smoking him and Sean's really good weed, and I got this idea for the filthiest band, like, a band of just filthy fuckin'... So I came home, I'm like, "Alright, we're starting a new band. It's called the Beast People." And I was like, "First song, 'I Don't Bathe.'" [laughter]
Twig: Oh yeah! Yeah, yeah.
Aaron: And I think we just went down and started recording. So I think the first tape has got stuff that just Nate recorded, stuff that just Twig recorded, stuff that's all of us. It was kind of turning into a caveman sort of beast, like, caveman band.
Twig: Yeah. Beast people. [laughter]
Aaron: Like, we stopped saying actual words. Yeah, we did a bunch of gigs. Cary Loren from Destroy All Monsters kind of got obsessed with us and kept booking us. But then at one point, I was like, "You know, we either need to stop, or we got to up the game." I think it was seeing Caroliner and seeing Forcefield. I was like, "Man, if you're going to do costumes, it's gotta be, like... The two of them." You forget you're watching actual humans, you know?
Jack: Yeah, they're so involved.
Aaron: They both took it to a Jim Henson level, where it's, like... I remember seeing Forcefield the first time and it was scary, you know? It was like I didn't think I'm watching people. I thought I was watching aliens or something. So I was like, "If we're going to keep doing it, it's gotta be like that." You know? But then our costumes were pretty, like, just whatever's laying around. Oh, we had a horse costume at one point.
Jack: You had a horse?
Aaron: Yeah! We rented a horse costume. A two-person horse costume.
Twig: A two-person! And then the beasts were inside.
Aaron: Well, I remember the horse came in and eventually fell asleep on a synth. And so its head was just on a synth and it was like [makes synthesizer sound].
[Andrew W.K. "Wolf Eyes Rules"]
Aaron: I'm just trying to think of the time period that you and Carly had the mystery spot and Nate was living there and we would come out to play. Oh, there was the Black Friday gig, and that was a big one. It was at the Congress Theater. It was Wolf Eyes, Universal Indians, I was playing in both bands. It was before [John] Olson had joined Wolf Eyes. Nautical. And those were the first Wolf Eyes shows. The first Wolf Eyes show I saw I remember was Nate was still living in Chicago and he had his circuit bent keyboard. He would just kind of hit it and let it play and I remember he would drink wine and kind of do, like...
Twig: Yeah, yeah, he's a real classy gentleman. [laughter]
Aaron: He would do poetry over these songs that were just he'd hit the demo button or something. But he had fucked it up so much that it just sounded insane.
Twig: Just spitting out electronic gibberish.
Aaron: Yeah, and he was really fucking funny. I had never seen, like... I didn't know about the term "circuit bending," you know? You guys just all started fucking with that stuff and...
Twig: Well, we didn't really see anyone else do it. I think that comes for me using tapes and just being like, "I can't afford musical instruments. I can't afford to invest the time to learn music theory." [laughter] "So how do we do this?" And then slowly figure it out like, "Oh, you can open things up, short circuit these keyboards and put a switch or change things out."
Aaron: I'm trying to think, when Wolf Eyes first became a trio, did we do tours with Nautical or just one off shows with you and Carly? I feel like there were... Didn't we do a tour where you were, like, our roadie but didn't play? Am I thinking right?
Twig: I mean, around what time? What was the Lollapalooza-didn't-happen tour? Because I was with you guys on that.
Aaron: Oh yeah, that was it! The Sonic Youth tour.
Twig: Yeah, yeah.
Aaron: When we toured with Sonic Youth you were our merch dude, roadie, kind of.
Jack: Well, yeah, okay. Do you want to maybe talk a little bit about that Sonic Youth tour and what led up to it? And then there's the Sub Pop record. That period is interesting because it's the end of your time with the band but it was sort of a peak for that scene in a way, you know? Just that kind of time period.
Aaron: Yeah, we did the record. I love that record. We did a couple of shows, we played Chicago and Detroit with Sonic Youth if they were coming through. We had done that a bit earlier, Thurston [Moore] had Universal Indians open for Sonic Youth in, like, '97, back when I first joined the band. They did the first half of the show without me and then I came out and did the second half with them. I think I had joined the band a month earlier. Or wasn't even in the band, actually, I just started jamming at some parties with them.
Jack: What was their relationship, or how did Thurston find out about them? Do you know?
Aaron: He was buying shit from from Olson back from... He probably got the stuff from reading Bananafish as well, right? Because I remember bringing him a Galen record to give him and I gave it to him at the show and he was like, "I already got this!" [laughter] And he gave it to Lee [Renaldo].
Jack: Classic.
Aaron: So yeah, he followed all the shit. You know, and we had been touring like crazy. We did the Sub Pop record and then they asked us to play Lollapalooza.
Twig: I think it was the other way around because I went to Sub Pop on that tour. We all went there, to the Sub Pop offices, and the contract was signed then because everyone was like, "What? Who are you? Are you really going to do this?"
Aaron: Oh, were you there with us?! When we went to that meeting?
Twig: Yeah!
Aaron: And they're like, "How do you want to market this?" And we're like, "Skateboard and metal magazines." I remember saying "Skateboard magazines, heavy metal magazines."
Twig: Yeah, it was on that tour because I was there.
Aaron: That seems weird.
Twig: Doesn't it?
Aaron: So yeah, that tour was Wolf Eyes opening for Sonic Youth. But that was originally supposed to be Lollapalooza.
Jack: Yes, okay, that's right. I heard about that.
Aaron: Yeah, Wolf Eyes was supposed to play Lollapalooza. [laughter] And that's when I... It kind of freaked me out.
Jack: Really?
Aaron: Well, it was, like... You know, Erika and I were going to get married, I was going to go to Nepal after the tour, but it was when the band became more of a job than three buddies freaking each other out, you know? And so that's when it was like these, "We're going to get paid all this money," and, like... And now when I'm looking back on it, it was not that much money. [laughter]
Jack: A couple thousand dollars.
Aaron: Yeah, but I was like, "I'm going to leave." We had all this momentum at that time, but I'm like, "I'm going to leave for six months." And I felt like I had to. As soon as I'd get in the swing of being back at home after a tour, it was time to leave and go on tour again. And I couldn't keep up with the pace, so it became difficult. It affected the friendship side of things. But that tour was incredible. I remember the Mothers Against Noise thing was born on that tour.
Jack: Oh yeah. You want to talk a little bit about Mothers Against Noise?
Twig: Oh yeah. [laughter]
Jack: Another classic...
Twig: Shenanigan.
Aaron: I think we first started it in San Diego or something, we were hanging out with somebody and we said that our gig the night before got picketed by a bunch of concerned mothers because we were joking about the fact that we were touring with Sonic Youth. We're like, "Yeah, you know, like..."
Twig: "This is going to be it! This is going to be the new, dangerous music!" [laughter] "Kids are going to be onto this!" What does a dangerous music need? A concerned parental group against it! And so it was like, "Okay, if it's not going to happen, at least I guess we could just make it happen." You know?
Aaron: So we started telling everybody and then we ended up getting interviewed by Spin magazine and somebody else. I wish I had the transcripts of that, because I'm sure we all told different stories, too. [laughter] We're all kind of freaking out, calling each other like, "Alright, we gotta get our stories straight." [laughter] And then within a day they figured it out that it was bullshit. But, well, the website came before that.
Twig: Yeah, so I think we made it up on tour and in one interview someone, maybe Olsen, dropped the fake thing. And then I remember being back home and just being like, "Well, oh yeah, I could just make a website. Let's just see how much this actually has any legs," you know? So we made the website.
Aaron: We made a list of gateway bands. Radiohead. [laughter]
Twig: Yeah, yeah. Everything was misspelled, the syntax was really bad. And so it's like, you know, just the classic, people are saying that, like, John Cage 4'33" is about the amount of active components in marijuana. [laughter] You know, just completely wrong information. So get everybody, like... You know, the nerds will get angry because the information's wrong. And a really big "send us an email" on the website, and then so the emails would come in and there'd be people writing these very heartfelt things, being like, "You're totally wrong. This is not right."
Aaron: Oh yeah! Because friends of ours who didn't...
Twig: People were trying to get on the list! [laughter]
Aaron: People we knew were replying to it being pissed.
Twig: Yeah, yeah. People were either pissed or being like, "We're really dangerous, put us on the list! We're the worst band ever!" And then just feel embarrassment for your friends who are trying to get on it. [laughter] Trying to get on the bad boys list.
Aaron: But then you gave the login info to some drum & bass dudes and they took over the website.
Twig: No, no, no, the drum & bass dudes were early... They saw it and they were like, "Oh, we love it. We're concerned parents, too." They automatically registered it thinking we were a parents group and they were trying to hijack it.
Aaron: Oh yeah, that's right.
Jack: Oh, so they didn't even know.
Twig: Yeah, they didn't know it was a joke, so it got like pretty wormy
Aaron: But you were messaging with them. And then didn't you give them the info, too?
Twig: Well, they cloned the website and registered the website.
Aaron: And then, next thing you know, the whole website is just a drum & bass comp, or, like, a gabber compilation or something. [laughter]
Twig: Which is also amazing, it makes it so much more confusing and so perfect.
Aaron: When you got the first Mothers Against Noise, you used Universal Music Group's address.
Twig: Yeah, yeah. The other layer was registering it to Universal Music Group, so if anyone did any sleuthing they would see like, "Oh, this is an obvious fake marketing ploy." You know? It seemed like it was bigger.
Aaron: Well, it talks about it being related to Andrew W.K.
Twig: Yeah, yeah, so it pulls into the whole Andrew W.K./Steev Mike thing, which also adds to the part of, like... During No Fun [Fest], when I was trying to do all the actual protests and organize actors to do it, that evening when Nautical drove up there and we're trying to do it, 2 minutes before the doors open on the festival we got a phone call and that's when Tarantula Hill caught fire.
Jack: Oh God, that's right. I didn't realize that it corresponded right with that.
Twig: Yeah, so it adds, you know... So I was having a mental breakdown in general because I was like, "Is my building really on fire? Is it not? Are people fucking with me because I've been fucking with everyone else?" The whole sense of "what is real is not real" kind of really cracked me up in that way, you know? Was it some of Andrew's psychotic obsessive fans who came and torched Tarantula when I was gone? Was it just an accident? Who knows.
Jack: When did you buy T. Hill? What year was that?
Twig: Well, we moved in on April Fool's Day, 2001. [laughter].
Jack: Amazing.
Twig: Yeah, yeah. That was our whole thing, we lived in the Mystery Spot, save all our money. After seeing so many people not being able to maintain spaces or keep their creative practices going, we obviously knew like, "Okay, yeah, you gotta buy a building and gotta have a home base." You know, for us, we're doing things that will never make money. There's just no model and it's not going to happen, so we gotta just figure out how to live as cheaply as possible so we can stay focused on our community. So we bought that building, which was basically an abandoned building, hadn't been lived in since the '70s. We dumped all our money into it and just worked on it nonstop.
Jack: What happened with T. Hill and everything now? I don't think I ever heard. You sold it?
Twig: Oh, right now? Yeah, I passed it on, sold it to a person in Baltimore. Basically with all this, I got rid of all my archives, Aaron's got those. I sold off basically everything I own. Sensory deprivation tank is still there and the sauna is still there and a lot of the tools. Yeah, so the person running it now does renovation and construction, so it's a good workspace for him. And one of the roommates stayed there in the house, so he's going to just keep doing that. You know, counter-culture, if you want to call it that, has always existed throughout culture. So it's the same spirit, it just changes form. So somewhere it's going to happen somehow.
Aaron: And it is happening. I'm sure we're just too old to be hip to it.
Twig: We're too old to know.
Jack: Well, that might actually be a really positive note to end it on, to wrap it up on.
Aaron: Cool. Thanks, man.
Jack: Thank you guys so much for talking with me. This was a nice afternoon of chopping it up and learning some new stuff about my friends. So, yeah, well, I'll talk to you guys soon. Great to chat. I'll see you guys.
Aaron: Cool. Bye, Jack.
Twig: Peace out!
